Introduction:

Welcome to Preacher P.S. Today, we’ll hear some additional thoughts about this past Sunday’s teaching shared at Walnut Creek Presbyterian Church in the San Francisco Bay Area. We’ll get inside the meaning of the sermon and the heart of the preacher as we consider the why, what, and how of the message.

Devona Brazier:

I’m your host, Devona Brazier, and today I have the privilege of a conversation with Tommy Branagh, who preached this sermon on June 14th, God’s Messenger. And a link to that sermon’s in the show notes. And it’s great to talk with you, Tommy.

Tommy Branagh:

Fun. It’s great to be talking with you, too.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah. I haven’t been on the podcast in a while. It’s nice to get the headset back on. I mean, is it. I don’t really like microphones or headsets, so I think I just lied to you. Sorry.

Tommy Branagh:

But it’s good to have you back on. Technology aside, it is good to have you back on the podcast.

Devona Brazier:

I like being on the podcast.

Tommy Branagh:

Yes.

Devona Brazier:

So I’ll put up with the stuff I don’t like.

Tommy Branagh:

I, and I know many others enjoy having you on the podcast. So.

Devona Brazier:

So let’s dive in. You got to preach on Jonah today, and a very fun passage with a lot. We got to tell the whole story in the scripture reading, which was really fun. And it also was the Sunday of this year that our church is marking the national holiday of Juneteenth. And so I got to handle some of that in the confessional prayer, which was fun. And then when you started your opening sequence in your sermon, you were talking about prophets in general. And then you used an example of a modern prophet to kind of place people and understanding that prophets aren’t fortune tellers. They have a different function. And you use Martin Luther King Jr. And I was wondering, did you pick him because of the connection with Juneteenth and, like, the progress from freeing enslaved Africans to, like, the social justice movements of the 20th century? Or was there something else behind that? Is he just a great prophet?

Tommy Branagh:

Yeah, you know, I think it dovetailed well, that kind of trajectory of increasing justice for African Americans in the story of Juneteenth obviously continues through into the ministry and work of Martin Luther King Jr. That’s not actually specifically why I chose him, but something you named within that question that was really kind of what I wanted to highlight, which is, I don’t know if this is a commonly shared thought. This was a thought that I had. And so if others have it, I kind of wanted to be able to correct it to some extent, which is the thought that almost all prophetic work involves special revelation, that to be a prophet you have to have kind of access to knowledge that only you could have because God has given it to you. And that is a component of prophetic work. So, you know, a lot of the forward looking prophecies about the Messiah or there are things that God reveals to prophets that only they get access to. But really the bulk of the prophetic work is actually not something that requires special knowledge. It just requires the conviction to speak what is true. And as it turns out, historically there are a lot of obvious truths that are very convenient to ignore. And the prophetic work is saying those things. And so I think it’s easy for us to understand how that played out in the ministry of Martin Luther King Jr. Like he was naming something that was obvious for everyone to see that something evil was happening and it was being called good. And it was in contradiction to what God taught, though many people who claim to be Christians were practicing it, which was racial discrimination, Jim Crow, horrible legacy of racial sin in this country. And so Martin Luther King did not need God to give him particular secret knowledge. This was not like a secret sin. This was in front of everybody. It was enforced, it was accepted, it was perpetuated by people who were trying to ignore what was obviously true. And that was a lot of the prophetic work was to say, you know, hey, God has told us we’re only supposed to worship him and yet we have temples to every God imaginable here. And that’s bad team. We’re not supposed to be doing that. You don’t have to have a dream where God gives you insight to know that. And so I think that was one of the reasons I wanted to choose him, is because he very courageously said something that was an obvious truth that many people were committed to ignoring. And that’s a huge component of the prophetic work.

Devona Brazier:

Got it. That’s interesting. Yeah. I was thinking, I was trying to think who else I would pick as a modern day prophet. We talked about this a little bit before we hit record, so you had a moment to think about it. But is there anybody that you would think of now?

Tommy Branagh:

Yeah, I mean, I think that there are voices. Desmond Tutu in South Africa was definitely one of those. He wrote an amazing book that’s actually very on brand with a theme of Jonah called No Future Without Forgiveness. And it’s kind of about the whole truth and reconciliation process and how the answer to apartheid, if you wanted a healed nation, couldn’t be just turning the tables and now having the people who were oppressed become the oppressor. But actually, you have to have opportunity for repentance and forgiveness. And so that’s a really beautiful book. So I’d say he is very much that kind of voice.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah.

Tommy Branagh:

I mean, I think, like, Bonhoeffer was a kind of voice.

Devona Brazier:

Oh, yeah.

Tommy Branagh:

Many in Nazi Germany who were in the Church just became complicit with the evils of the empire. And that was someone who spoke what was plainly, obviously true, and yet few people in his position were willing to say that truth. So, yeah, those are a couple of people who come to mind.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah, those are good. I was thinking about. I think it still remains to be seen how much so. But the current Pope Francis and his encyclical on AI, it’s not so much like a condemnation of AI, the technology itself, because the technology exists and it has all technology has the power to improve people’s lives. But his main point in that encyclical is that if we develop the technology, it’s important that we don’t use it to supersede humanity or oppress humanity, that it helps for the thriving of humanity, which I just think is we have a very. We’re very close to the edge of many people believing that humans are completely meaningless. And we are not meaningless.

Tommy Branagh:

We are indeed not. We are of inestimable worth.

Devona Brazier:

Yes, exactly.

Tommy Branagh:

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you have Micah next week, which was very much in the themes of justice and mercy, which are huge themes across the prophets. And I would say that our current Pope and the last pope both, I think, used their position well to speak on behalf of the marginalized, the poor and the forgotten.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah.

Tommy Branagh:

And I mean, unfortunately, the oppression of such groups is an evergreen sin of humanity. And the Church is always needing our attention, called afresh to taking up their cause and not perverting justice. And I think that both Popes, I think, have done a really good job of using their platform to speak that truth loudly and to kind of prophetically call Christians to account there. So.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, yeah. Publicly, like, in large form, and also to individual leaders where they have their voice at the table, which is great. It makes me wonder. We don’t often preach from the prophets. We usually do it. If we’re going to be talking about the prophets, it’s usually in Advent, that’s when we talk about prophets the most. So we don’t always give a whole sermon to it. And I was wondering if preaching from the prophets, does that change your tone or the voice that you’re going to bring to the congregation?

Tommy Branagh:

Yeah, that’s an interesting question. In some ways, you might be more better positioned to answer that question about me than I am about myself. I mean, I have a couple thoughts that I have around that is Jesus is a very prophetic voice. And so though not a prophet, I think much of his preaching is in the tradition of the prophets. And so there I like preaching Jonah this morning didn’t feel out of step with some of the sermons that Jesus gives and kind of preaching that call that places on us. So I don’t know if I would say I felt uniquely different within that. I mean, we’ve actually talked about this on the podcast before. But a conviction that I feel very deeply is that so much of the confronting that scripture does is confronting people who believe they are right with God, who are actually wrong with God.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah.

Tommy Branagh:

And you see that. I mean, that’s the prophet’s work. It’s people who believe that because they are the people of God that they just have God’s approval and they can do whatever they want. You know, you see that a ton in the New Testament in basically, I mean, it culminates in Jesus being executed by the people who are supposed to be receiving him.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah.

Tommy Branagh:

And so I do think that a burden that you have as a preacher, I feel as a preacher, when engaging prophetic work, is to make sure that we really recognize that we often, I think, probably want to think of ourselves as the prophets and we are more often the people who are needing to receive the message. And so I think I want to make sure that we’re not listening to think, oh, who needs this message? But to recognize there’s a really good chance I’m the person who needs this message and to kind of make us the recipients of it. So I think to that extent, that was a big goal that I had this morning. And anytime engaging the prophets is to make sure that, you know, we situate ourselves properly in understanding that whatever message is being proclaimed is at least in part for us.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah, I think that’s good. So the answer. That’s a long winded answer of no.

Tommy Branagh:

I guess so. Yeah. I don’t know that I preach it differently. Yeah, that’s. Yeah. TL;DR: No.

Devona Brazier:

It’s pretty good. So you mentioned that next week I’m going to be preaching on Micah, and I’m very excited about it. Previously, in earlier iteration of this sermon series, I would have given Jonah part two because we were going to split this up over two weeks. And so I thought it would be kind of fun to just think about how would this have gone differently if we had broken it into two weeks. Like, what would you have covered today and what would have been remaining for me?

Tommy Branagh:

Yeah, that’s a really interesting question. So, you know, initially chapters one and two are what I was going to preach today. And then you would have had three and four. And what splitting it that way does is it separates Jonah running from us finding out why Jonah ran.

Devona Brazier:

Ah.

Tommy Branagh:

And so because in chapter one is when he flees, and then in chapter four is when he tells God why he fled. And so that was part of the reason I wanted to have the chance to put them back together. And also I thought it would be kind of cool if we were able to get some of the other prophets, which I’m excited for Micah next week. But yeah, I mean, I think even listening to it read again this morning, which you and Mary did such a great job reading, there’s a lot of interesting stuff going on in Jonah fleeing, in him being on the ship with these people who again, kind of fit under that description that we hear of the Ninevites in chapter four. Like, they don’t know their left hand from their right. These are not people who know God, who are faithful to him, and yet there is some recognition that they are under a divine authority. And they are almost more in their lack of knowledge, somewhat more faithful than Jonah, who was, again, the person who’s supposed to be most faithful. So I think exploring some of those themes and just talking a little bit more in depth about how God was working outside of Israel at that time. And like, what kind of access did people have and what is this concern for them? And then, you know, there’s definitely something in there about our own obedience to the calls that God gives us that we maybe not that excited about. I mean, I think it’s not uncommon for us to be led places by God that on our own we’re not that excited to go. And it always ends up being for our good, but that doesn’t mean we always enjoy it. So I think that’s probably what the first half would have focused on more. And then that second half is so much about grappling with the question of Jonah just wanting his enemies to receive what would have been just punishment. I mean, it’s no one is entitled to mercy. That’s why it’s.

Devona Brazier:

That’s why it’s a gift.

Tommy Branagh:

That’s why it’s a gift. And so the thing that he wanted was not wrong, necessarily, but it was not in keeping with the character of a God who is gracious and merciful.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. In my silly version of this, it was gonna be that you got to preach all fish, and I got to preach all the meaningful stuff.

Tommy Branagh:

Yeah, that is also true. I probably would have had to spend a lot more time on the fish, which there’s a great VeggieTales song that I’ve listened to.

Devona Brazier:

I can’t stop singing it.

Tommy Branagh:

I listened to it a couple times while writing the sermon.

Devona Brazier:

I’m surprised you gave yourself the chance to get that earworm to potentially erupt while preaching. I had to stay far away because I just. It’s too catchy.

Tommy Branagh:

It is. It is. Those Newsboys.

Devona Brazier:

Oh, my God, you know, so funny.

Tommy Branagh:

Not an untarnished legacy, but they got some catchy tunes.

Devona Brazier:

That’s really funny. All the music in that movie is hilarious. Okay, back on to more serious matters, but still, including the fish.

Tommy Branagh:

Yeah.

Devona Brazier:

Like, you did not really spend a lot of time talking about the fish. There’s the whole scene with Jonah and his, like, his spite plant.

Tommy Branagh:

Yes. And the whole end of the book.

Devona Brazier:

The worm and all of these things. Like, there’s a lot that we didn’t get to cover because we. I mean, that’s, like, the theme of this series is what we didn’t get to cover this entire book. Surprise. So what hit the cutting room floor for you?

Tommy Branagh:

Yeah, I mean, I think the little episode at the end, which is kind of an enacted prophetic work of God with Jonah, where basically Jonah is holding out hope that God still might bring judgment on Nineveh. And so he sits on this hillside looking over the city, and it’s a hot day, and God causes this plant to grow that gives Jonah shade, and he’s delighting in that shade. And then God sends a worm that kills the plant. So then Jonah is baking in the sun again, and Jonah is so mad that the plant died. And that’s kind of when God asks him, like, is it right for you to be angry? And Jonah’s like, yes, absolutely. So Jonah is kind of writ large, missing a lot of how much of his life is receiving graces and good things from God. So, yeah, there’s definitely some fun anecdote. And that’s in miniature, sort of the whole story. And then I honestly, I don’t know how much more I had to say about, like, not was required to say, but literally, how much more there I could think of to say about the whale. Because to some extent, I think the basic answer for how do we grapple with miracles is like, I don’t know. If we believe God does some strange stuff, then it’s. I mean, it’s the same thing in some ways, whether it’s a fish in Jonah or it’s parting the Red Sea or an angel. Like, at some point, we either believe God can and does occasionally do these things and that fits into our worldview, or it doesn’t. And so I think we’ve hit enough of those through this series that I didn’t feel like a huge worldview conversation was the right place to land. But at that point, what’s left to say is like, yep, this is another one of those things that it’s kind of weird. We don’t think it’s normative. And we also believe God can do it. And so I don’t know. There’s a ton on the cutting room floor there. Only because I think we have not shied away from those kinds of questions in our normal preaching and teaching. And so that I didn’t have a tremendous amount to add other than this time. He did it with a big fish.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah. I mean, any other conversation that we could have had on that would have been academic.

Tommy Branagh:

The one thing that is whale or fish related that didn’t make it into the sermon is that is actually an analogy that Jesus uses, sort of helping explain some of his own work. It’s that his three days in the grave is kind of analogous to Jonah’s three days. And then he emerges once again with a prophetic message of God’s mercy. So there’s kind of a parallel that Jesus himself makes.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah. I mean, I would love to talk about that more. I’ve always wondered about that, because when I see it, I don’t really see Jesus as a new Jonah, because Jesus is not spiteful about it. I mean, sometimes he’s grumpy.

Tommy Branagh:

Yeah.

Devona Brazier:

Because people can’t get a clue. And he’s tired of saying the same thing over and over again. But he’s definitely not there. God does not need to send a spite plant to no Jesus.

Tommy Branagh:

Very much not.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah.

Tommy Branagh:

Which I think to that extent is sort of in keeping with this theme that the Jesus Storybook Bible, which we drew on in some ways to form the series, I think is helpful because so much of the Old Testament is pointing towards Jesus. But it’s these very flawed people who themselves are incapable of actually truly living into what God calls them to. And that’s Jonah. I mean, he does deliver the message that brings about the repentance of these people, but he’s unable to be joyful about it because he’s spiteful. And then Jesus, as a better Jonah, is actually able to both understand the mission, delight in the mission, fulfill the mission, you know, so it’s sort of like he gets the 2.0 is all of the accomplishments of Jonah, but none of the bad parts.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah. If Jonah could have done it right, it would have looked like what Jesus did.

Tommy Branagh:

Yeah. Yes. That’s a good way to say it.

Devona Brazier:

Oh, well, we talked about that in just enough time. I don’t have any more questions.

Tommy Branagh:

Well, as always, great to be with you on the program.

Devona Brazier:

Are you worship pastor next week? Is this going to be an opposite next week or.

Tommy Branagh:

That’s an interesting question.

Devona Brazier:

I guess we’ll have to tune in and find out.

Tommy Branagh:

I know I’m at the table next week, but I don’t remember from worship pastor, so TBD. But if I. It’d be fun to turn the tables if so.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah, you get to ask me questions about Assyria.

Tommy Branagh:

Amazing.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah.

Tommy Branagh:

Well, Devona, great to be with you.

Devona Brazier:

Yeah, you too, Tommy.