Introduction:

Welcome to Preacher P.S. Today, we’ll hear some additional thoughts about this past Sunday’s teaching shared at Walnut Creek Presbyterian Church in the San Francisco Bay Area. We’ll get inside the meaning of the sermon and the heart of the preacher as we consider the why, what, and how of the message.

Jeremy Howard:

I am your host, Jeremy Howard and today I have the privilege of having a conversation with Pastor Bart Garrett, who preached the sermon on a little servant girl and the proud general from 2 Kings. A link to that sermon is in the show notes. Great to be talking with you.

Bart Garrett:

You as well, Jeremy.

Jeremy Howard:

Yeah, it was a fantastic sermon as always. Thank you so much.

Bart Garrett:

Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Howard:

As I saw it, as I was listening to you speak, kind of the main message, what I took away from it is that when we search for healing in our lives, there’s we can go with society’s solutions to that problem or God’s solution to that problem. And if we’re looking in the specific text we read today, it is all about physical healing. But as you noted in your sermon, really kind of the application is broader than that. Right. That there is a spiritual or emotional healing that we’re searching for.

Bart Garrett:

Yeah, yeah. To elaborate on that, and I mentioned, I imagine the 9am is typically the one that shows up on the podcast and on the recording the video. So I mentioned a well meaning bit of feedback between services which I mentioned in the 11am sermon was just what to make of physical healing that doesn’t happen. I mean even if you’re trusting God and not sort of succumbing to throwing everything in the kitchen sink at it, which there’s another sermon or another lesson somewhere there of like God uses ordinary means and this is not a like anti medicine versus God’s grace sort of moment. Let’s put that aside and just simply say I wanted to bring up in the 11 that though Naaman’s healing was physical in nature, we see his spiritual healing at the conclusion of this text. And as we’ve been saying, the patterning and the paradigmatic realities are pointing like signs and wonders did in the miracles in Jesus day of a grander, eternal, full, holistic healing. So I’m not shortchanging our need to be healed physically, emotionally, relationally, all the stuff. But I wanted to really accentuate this story is about ultimately the healing of a wrong relationship with God made right through Jesus. And we just sort of get to those illusions in the Hebrew scriptures, if you will.

Jeremy Howard:

Yeah, no, absolutely. That’s right. Very beautiful. I wanted to start kind of by asking the typical questions I like to ask in this podcast setting of have you ever preached on this passage before? And if so, like, how was it different preparing for it this time around? How did it impact you personally this time around?

Bart Garrett:

Yeah, I actually have never, believe it or not, preached on this.

Jeremy Howard:

Okay.

Bart Garrett:

As I mentioned, it’s this little known story that’s like right in the stories of all the kings. So I think it’s very intentional that the kings aren’t named in the story. You can go back and figure out who the king of Israel was, but I think that’s there to sort of demonstrate like this is a paradigmatic every story moment. So I was very excited to preach it. I’ve always loved the story. The title comes from the Jesus Storybook Bible, which as we’re going through the story of scripture this year, we’re using a lot of those text and titles. So it was a beautiful rendition in the story. So that was my first start, was to open the Jesus Storybook Bible that we used to read with our kids and read through it. I was like, oh man, I’m gonna really enjoy preaching this passage.

Jeremy Howard:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And like, for me, I think my first exposure to the story of Naaman was actually in the New Testament, like reading Luke chapter four. So. Which you alluded to in your sermon as kind of the. There’s the prequel and then there’s the sequel to this.

Bart Garrett:

Yeah, I mean, Jeremy, we could spend the next three hours geeking out on this. I had a lot of notes and already by of the week I was like, I can’t even get to the rest of the story. And so I mentioned. So if you’re here for the first time, then we wet your appetite well enough to get you to tune in. Because there really is a prequel and a sequel. And you already alluded to the number seven. But I’ll go ahead and bring it up here. The prequel, which happens right before is the healing of the Shunammite’s son. And when this child is raised from the dead, essentially he sneezes seven times and the sevens keep showing up. And you were mentioning before this podcast, there is this like holistic notion or a notion of completeness that gets attached to seven. Just as we look back at creation and the seven day account, it’s kind of a reordering of what was a dystopia is now being made new again by recreating it. So it’s the restoration of all things. So the prequel is simply yet another healing involving the number seven and yet Another picture of what God is promising through Jesus for the end of time. The sequel is Jesus alluding to this story, but in so doing, he is like very much in the throes of the religious establishment in Israel, just lambasting him. In fact, they try to throw him off a cliff right after he talks about the story. And what he’s highlighting gets to the sequel in Kings, where Gehazi, who was Elisha’s servant, becomes really greedy and envious of what has happened to Naaman and starts procuring his own methodologies the world solutions for finding healing. And, you know, Naaman is the one who’s going away with a deep sense of humility. In fact, because his servant is going to be making an offering to an idol, he’s asking Elisha, would it be okay if when he bows, I will be on his arm? I will bow with him, Right? But, you know, may this not be worship? Like, could, would you bless this so that I can continue to worship the one true God of Israel? And so all of that sequel in Kings, and the way Jesus is using it in the throes of the religious establishment wanting to throw them off a cliff, is saying, there are sheep that are not of this fold, that this is a. It’s Trinity Sunday, as you mentioned, like the essence of the missionary heartbeat of Father, Son and Spirit is to reconcile the whole world. And so the sequel is Jesus saying, learn from Naaman the outsider, not from Gehazi the insider. This one’s envious and jealous, and this one is now bending the knee to the true God of Israel. So it’s powerful.

Jeremy Howard:

It is. It is really powerful. And I would have been, obviously, it was very offensive for the synagogue leaders because Jesus is speaking in the synagogue in Nazareth at this point. And. And for him to make the claim that, you know, there were all these people in Israel who had leprosy at the time of Naaman, but it’s only Naaman, this Gentile, who receives the healing because he goes to the prophet in obedience to God. And yeah, as you say, they try to push him off the cliff after that, but it’s.

Bart Garrett:

And not to mention he’s just read Isaiah 61, where he’s essentially saying all of these prophecies of healing and the blind seeing and the deaf hearing, all of these things are about me.

Jeremy Howard:

It’s been fulfilled in your hearing. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. But it’s a great passage, as you’ve talked about in the Old Testament, where we see this kind of God’s future plan for the Gentiles, that salvation is going to spread beyond the nation of Israel.

Bart Garrett:

Right.

Jeremy Howard:

Abrahamic covenant stuff like, all nations will be blessed in you kind of a thing. So, yeah, no, it’s fantastic. Fantastic passage.

Bart Garrett:

Yeah.

Jeremy Howard:

I do struggle with. I want to talk a little bit more on what you mentioned about that Naaman having permission, it seems, from Elisha to bow down to those false gods. I wrestle with that passage. Like, is Elisha really speaking for God at that moment? Is he speaking presumptuously or is it. Yeah, I don’t know if that’s a good question. Any kind of insight there.

Bart Garrett:

I haven’t thought about that. Sometimes I. Sometimes I never take that question to the Old Testament prophets, but I definitely do to Paul. So, I mean, like, Paul says things like, it’s always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ is not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation. And I’ve always wondered, like, that’s great to expand the gospel. Is Paul a little arrogant? Like, what is his motivation? I’m not sure. Is he speaking fully for God there, or is God using secondary means to bring about the fulfillment of his purpose? I don’t know. So I think that’s a fair question to ask of Elisha. Like, is he. Would God be saying, you don’t speak for me? Right, right. Then, yeah.

Jeremy Howard:

I mean. I mean, no, just before you continue, I mean, it makes me think of, like, Nathan telling David, the prophet, Nathan telling David, like, yeah, sure, go ahead and build the temple. Yeah, right, that’s right. And then God’s like, no, I didn’t actually tell you to tell him.

Bart Garrett:

That’s good. Yeah. I mean, so, yeah, that’s an option. As we think about your tension and your struggle with this, it feels like a very utilitarian request, as I’ve already alluded to it. I mean, it seems as if Naaman saying, hey, I’m convinced, you know, I will now be declaring the Shema, hero of Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. So this is not me bowing as, like, you know, covering my. My spiritual rear end, if you will, trying to cover all my bases. This is me just doing something that needs to be done on our way home. So maybe there’s a utilitarian acceptance of that. And Elisha’s like, I get. I see your heart in this. And that’s understandable. I mean, that would not be unlike passages in Corinthians and Romans and Colossians, where, you know, there’s a lot of intramural debate in the church around, like, should we be eating meat that sacrificed idols? We’re not worshiping them. But is this meat defiled or is it holy and pure? Because the one true God has made it sacred regardless of its initial use. So I think that would be legitimate. Is there a number three that might even suggest there is an accommodation to cultural trappings, that in the grace of God, there’s a permissibility to moving slow as people are being sanctified? I don’t know. Who knows?

Jeremy Howard:

Yeah, no, I think there’s something there. I mean, God knows that the process of the salvation of the world is. It’s a slow process. We are a very sinful people.

Bart Garrett:

Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. Yeah. That’s great. I’m glad to hear you say. I wrestle with that tension there because I think that’s a. It’s. It’s a worthy one to wrestle with. Yeah, it’s very interesting.

Jeremy Howard:

It’s interesting.

Bart Garrett:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Howard:

You talked a little bit about the. About this. This washing of the seven times, you know, in the Jordan, like, harkening back to, like, the restoration or just the creation, when everything is created to be good.

Bart Garrett:

Yeah.

Jeremy Howard:

You know, and I’m also. And you talked in your sermon, too, about how it points forward towards. Towards the ministry of John the Baptist, who was baptizing people in the Jordan River. And I’m almost wondering if you see any connection also to. Even beyond that of the Christian baptism, the new covenant.

Bart Garrett:

Yeah. Oh, for sure, absolutely. I mean, I remember reading an article in seminary that was obviously written by a wonky seminary professor or a seminarian, because it was entitled John’s Baptism and Jesus Baptism colon: They are not the same. And it was just sort of this, like, how. What are the overlapping magisteria here? What’s in the liminal space of the Venn diagram between what John is doing in the Jordan versus what is commissioned as a sacrament by Jesus. And I think there’s a lot of overlap. I think there’s, you know, this is a ritual cleansing where John is essentially standing against the temple and saying, you know, that place has been so defiled in this moment. I am asking you to produce fruit in keeping with your repentance. And that was this baptism of repentance. So I think when Jesus is being baptized, he is becoming the chief repenter for the cosmos, even though he has nothing to repent over as the true Israelite. So I think there’s overlap there with this new covenant baptism, which involves the washing of rebirth that requires repentance. On our part. But I do think the aperture changes or the focus changes. I mean, at this point, and this is yet one reason why we might baptize children in the New Covenant. The focus is on God’s intervening work. Even with, as you were saying, alluding to the washing, the Jordan seven times, that’s. It’s not Naaman’s obedience that cleanses him ultimately, it’s the work of God through whatever means necessary in this point. Water, you know. Yeah. So I don’t know, what would you say there’s, I mean, yeah, I would echo kind of a lot of what you said, that there is this, this, this cleansing that we receive in, in the sacrament of baptism where it’s like as we are, as you talked about your sermon, we are just, we come with kind of open palms and just asking God for his free grace here. And as we, as we, as the water is poured over us, you know, we are, it’s like, it’s God saying, like, your sins are forgiven like you are. I have adopted you as like my son and daughter. So it’s this beautiful act of cleansing that I think we see it’s a foreshadowing in Naaman’s story.

Jeremy Howard:

Yeah, that’s right. Far greater, very well articulated.

Bart Garrett:

Yeah, that’s right.

Jeremy Howard:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Bart Garrett:

Yeah.

Jeremy Howard:

I wanted to ask about. So we talk about society’s solutions to these problems. Right. And there is this, this degree of like this, this self sufficiency kind of. Yeah. Of pull yourself up by your bootstraps kind of a thing. How do you think this text like also speaks to those who are like, they’re trying to trust in God, they’re praying to him, but they’re not getting what they asked for on the timeline that they wanted it or in the, in the manner that they wanted it. How does a passage like this kind of also speak to those people?

Bart Garrett:

Yeah, this is kind of where we started with that interim comment between services. So I thank you for circling back to this. Firstly, I would say to the first group that just is sort of this, the society solutions of. And once you see this, you can’t unsee it in the passage. I mean this is a man of deep connection, deep wealth, deep power and prowess, like all the stuff he can’t get away from it, the horses, the chariots. So he just keeps throwing at this issue, let’s fix this. I love that he’s taken to a place where it’s almost a resignation at first. I mean, I didn’t talk about the sermon, but it’s like, okay, there’s no great thing. There’s no, like, I’m just gonna do this and, and see what happens. And I think, well, I’ll say that Bank of America illustration, like, I’ve looked at that app, like, I don’t know, 3,000 times. I mean, how many times do we look at our banking app? We use it all the time for everything. I swear I’ve never seen or noticed that question until, like this Tuesday morning. And I immediately was like, that’s going in the sermon. The sermon illustration. Yeah, yeah. Because I do think to your word on self sufficiency, like, that’s what God is going to keep rooting out of our life by his grace. Because it’s just, it’s a slippery slope. Our motivational drive shaft of our heart is just always leaning towards, I can do this. I can make this happen. I can do a little more, you know, connect, make a few more connections, like establish a little more in my portfolio, whatever it is. And it just is not going to fix the eternal issue of needing to be reconnected to God. So, yes, all that for the first group. For the second group, where you’re talking about, what about people who are sincerely pursuing healing and it just, it seems like their prayers falling on deaf ears or they’re knocking on a door that isn’t open. And in a pastoral counseling setting, I would make space to say, you’re on holy ground and I’m on holy ground being with you in this, and thank you for creating sacred space, because these are longings that just rip our heart out. And, you know, we all know this in our own families with people struggling with cancer or people, people that we’ve already lost to God even in glory. So I would want to be very careful to say, and Jesus does this in various teachings, there is never a one to one corollary to the purity of your faith being the component whereby God is going to heal you. That every physical healing, the miraculous ones especially, are signs and wonders. They’re patterns and paradigms of what will be. And there is something so great in that final consummation of God’s perfectly complete kingdom that we will never understand in this life, that we’ll somehow make amends. And I don’t just mean by way of consolation as a consolation prize, but we’ll make full amends of all the pain and anguish and loss and suffering that we’ve experienced in this life. So I would, as a pastor, try my best to be just incredibly empathetic and, you know, to hug someone in their tears and say, Yes. I want to be healed too. I want my loved one back. I want this to work out. And yet there’s something about being connected to God as I was designed to be. It’s like Psalm 63:3. Because your love, O Lord, is greater than life My lips will glorify you. So somehow resting in the love God has for me and the relationship I share with him transcends any lack of healing I might experience in this life.

Jeremy Howard:

Absolutely.

Bart Garrett:

Wow.

Jeremy Howard:

That’s a. That’s a beautiful verse to end on, Bart.

Bart Garrett:

Oh, well, thank you. Yeah, it is a beautiful verse. May we live into it as fully as we can.

Jeremy Howard:

Amen. Amen. Thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and talk.

Bart Garrett:

Yeah, thanks, Jeremy. I really enjoyed it and I love. I love all the ribbing in the service between us. It’s fun banter.

Jeremy Howard:

Yeah.

Bart Garrett:

So have a great week, everyone. Yeah.

Jeremy Howard:

Same.